College and Then What?: Lawrence Mishel and the Higher Education Debate

Higher education is a major issue in current public debate. Should it be accessible for everyone? Why or why not? If not, for whom? How much responsibility should federal and state governments bear for providing higher education? These questions are complicated, difficult, and likely to remain in open debate for a long time. Consider, for example, a series of op-ed essays called “Should College Be for Everyone?” that the New York Times recently published. This piece, written by Lawrence Mishel of the non-partisan Economic Policy Institute, is part of the series, and was published in March 2012.

Read it here: Mishel, "College Is Not Always the Answer"

 

1. Mishel outlines three key requirements for ensuring that non-college jobs are worthwhile, respectable, and desirable. Do you agree that the three components Mishel identifies are all necessary? Are they sufficient? What would you add or subtract from his list? Explain your reasoning.
2. You’re in college now. Why did you choose to pursue a college degree? How much of your motivation was economic in nature? What other factors entered into your decision? If you were to learn that your college degree wouldn’t change your lifetime earning potential, would getting  a degree still be your goal?
3. You may find a great deal of overlap between Mishel’s argument here and Charles Murray’s argument in chapter 14 of your textbook. In what ways do their approaches differ? Which of the two arguments is more persuasive to you? Why?
4. Mishel concludes with a call to challenge the “snobbery” he sees in attitudes that college graduates are somehow superior to non-graduates. Have you observed this snobbery in your life? Would your own attitudes meet Mishel’s description of snobbery? How would you respond to Mishel’s assessment? Write an essay in which you examine the attitudes around you—yours and those of people influential in your life—towards non-college graduates. Are they considered less intelligent? Less skilled?

 

Comments

[Asuka Saunders]

Education should not be denied to anyone.
However, it should not be wasted on those who do not truly want to go to school and would just waste the money spent on them. The government is responsible for helping us with financial aide because most of us cannot afford school.

[Matthew Tanner]

Mishel outlines three key requirements for ensuring that non-college jobs are worthwhile, respectable, and desirable. Do you agree that the three components Mishel identifies are all necessary? Are they sufficient? What would you add or subtract from his list? Explain your reasoning.

Though I do not quite agree that all of the components stated by Mishel are so vital, they are definitely beneficial to a successful and happy life. They are, in fact, sufficient. However, if more components must be added, I believe social contact would play an important role in nearly any job. Social contact keeps people happy and makes jobs more interesting, meaning people will be able to work longer and be more productive overall for longer periods of time. Even so, this is merely speaking in general. Some may find themselves more happy and productive when there are not other people around to talk to. Therefore it is still understandable that Mishel did not add social contact to his list of necessary components; but for the greater percent of the population, it is true that social contact is beneficial at work.

[christian wesolowski]

i am currently enrolled in college. i choose to continue my education and earn a degree, for a couple of reasons, i am currently in the air force reserves and in working with so many people and seeing different backgrounds and peoples life choices,it was obvious that gaining a college degree was the best choice. along with that of course is the obvious reason most people get there education and that is, a better career which leads to better money. not many jobs that dont require a college degree pay very well which is a fact. you basically need to fall into something that pays what most college grads would get. so you can say my choices were based on economic issues, i want dont want to live pay check to pay check, i want to have nice things and take vacations, things that all come with a career given by a college degree. i can honestly say that if i was given the oppurtunity to make 6 figures a year and never have to sit in a classroom again, with out question i would start tommorrow. i dont have the internal drive to gain as much knowledge about things that in all honesty i wont even use when i finish college anyway, but i understand the need for it, im not ignorant to education i would rather just gain the knowledge i need to do my choosen career. to get to my personal goals i do need to go to college and its just a hill i need to climb to get to where i want my life to be.

[Shaydi Paramore]

I believe that everyone has a right to a high education and to a college degree but if they decided to get rid of finicaial aid then muliple people will not be able to go.With finicaial so many people are able to go,which can cause them to have trouble getting a job since nowadays some jobs actually require the person applying for the job to have an associates degree.So I believe they should haven't get rid of pale grants and finicial aid without it alot of people will not be able to hava job or education

[Erika Baker]

1.The 3 components mentioned in the article was “strong labor, easy way to get union representation and mandated benefits in retirement”. I do feel these key components are important to making a job desirable and respectable but there is more to it that. In today’s job market, many Americans’ seek out jobs that provide benefits that will aid them in the future. Americans want a job that will take care of their families. The components are good main points that should have been elaborated on. Mishel should have gone into depth about how the components would help attract people to the job and elaborate on how those aren’t the only things that make a job desirable; other factors play a part in it too.
2.I chose to pursue a college degree to enhance my knowledge about the career I want to pursue. Also, I wanted to better myself as a person. I knew if I attended college, I would be more professional in my work ethics. I would say that economics played a huge part in my decision to attend college. I knew if I further my education, I could obtain a job. Even though the job market isn’t so great, I feel that having an education gives you more leverage on getting into the job market as oppose to someone who didn’t further their education. The other factors that played into me choosing a major was, the employment rate and how wide the job market is for my major. I would still work to obtain a degree, but maybe not the a degree that I am majoring in now, depending on how much they are offering in the other field, will depend on what major I pursue.
3.Mishel just makes statements and doesn’t have evidence to back his statements up, but Charles Murray makes statements and he has various cases to justify his statements. I feel that harles Murray article is more persuasive then Mishel’s article, because his statements are broad, but there’s proof to justify all of his claims and real-life examples. His article to me becomes automatically more persuasive.
4.I have not witness any “snobbery” graduates. Every time I have encountered a graduate student, they have been nothing but nice. The graduates would even give me advice on how to survive my college years. When I graduate from college my attitude wouldn’t fit into Mishel’s description. I will be a very humble and a kind person who helps others. I would prove Mishel’s wrong about his assessment and make him see that he made a false accusation and that he should immediately apologize. I carry myself with the upmost humility. I’m a newbie to the college world, so I feel that this is the time for me to listen to my elders and figure out what works best for me. I want to get the full experience of being a college student, but I know that In the process of doing that, I will need so reconcile from the experienced graduates. The graduates that I have met have been the most understanding and kind people I have met. They have helped me though situations that I thought I could never get out of. I have had a great experience with the graduate students; they have passed down some of their techniques they used when they were in college. I don’t know what I would do without them. In our society, non- graduates are perceived to be less educated and less skilled because they didn’t attend college, but that’s not the case. Non- graduate aren’t less intelligent, they just chose to pursue a different career path then those who chose to go to college. That doesn’t make them less intelligent or skilled.

[Elysse Cantu]

When it comes to Mishel’s essay I can agree and disagree on it. I can agree on higher education for the students out there. This will help better prepare them for their future careers. Although I cannot say that high education will lead to harder working students. Many people out in the world that have a college degree are under the impression that they can work wherever. That is no longer the case in America it is really hard for people to land a nice steady paying job. I can agree with Mishel’s statement, “We also need to prepare many students for jobs that don’t require college degrees.” It is true some students out there do not want to go to college but they should not have to suffer because of their decisions. Also many people cannot afford to go to college and that is not fair to them. Although they do not go to college does not mean they cannot be prepared for the jobs that are out there. I agree they should be able to build up some knowledge for the outside world when it comes to a job. I disagree with the statement, “Even more important is that we need to ensure that these non-college jobs pay well and offer good benefits.” I think an education should be required for good pay and good benefits. If a student is going to put thousands of dollars into an education they should get the upper hand out of it. I am not saying the students who do not attend school should not get paid well I just think they should not get paid as much as the students with an education. I myself attend college right now and I am working as hard as I can to reach my career. I understand it is going to take some time before I reach my goal. I think if I am going to spend sleepless nights and many hours at school I should be rewarded for it. I would be upset if a student with no college education was working and getting paid well and had benefits although they did not work for it as much as I did.

[Monique White]

I agree with Mishel’s assessment because the condition that the country is in only makes us look down even more on people who are non- graduates. “Our focus should be to support students’ effort to complete their education and training, especially disadvantaged and working class students…” (Mishel) There is currently not a balance of benefits between people with college degrees and non-college degree persons. The gap is horrifyingly large and it only scares people out of not making their talents or skills their occupations. Instead, people go to college to get a degree in something there not even interested in doing just to get a “high” paying job to survive and live a comfortable lifestyle. “Right now a third of the work force has a four-year college degree or further education” (Mishel) I think it’s sad that pretty soon even a four-year college degree will amount to a high school degree. The work force should be well rounded. People who don’t have college degrees should still be able to live off of what they earn and still be able to save money also. “We need a nation that has and values all sorts of work and skills…” (Mishel) All varieties of jobs or skills should be accepted no matter how unimportant some people think they are.
I have been a witness and am also guilty of the snobbery of non college educated persons. I personally don’t think that they are any less than people with college degrees. But when some people are around their friends there “comfortable” and the conversation about someone who is their friend or someone they know that doesn’t have a college degree might come up and they talk badly about the person like they have done something wrong.

[George Ooi]

1) In my opinion, I agree with Mishel that key requirements for ensuring non-college jobs are worthwhile and desirable, but I disagree with “respectable” from the list. The reason that I think respectable is not required for non-college jobs because every job has its own position in the society. We should not look down on any kind of job. So, it is not necessary to claim that non-college jobs have to be respectable. Furthermore, our jobs need to be worthwhile because the jobs we choose will affect the future outcome. Our life will be awful if we make a mistake choosing the jobs that are not meaningful to us. We must select the job which is worthwhile for us to spend with and assure our future. Desirable is also a vital requirement for non-college jobs as it will affect our job performance if we don’t like it. Overall, it is depend on ourselves to think that whether the job is desirable. For example, if you aren’t satisfied with your new job even you get a well-paid job; you will know that it is not the job you desire. In other word, we have to choose the job that suites us the most.

2) I personally think that one of the ways to assure my future’s life is to get an excellent academic performance in college and pursue a college degree. I can honestly say that my motivation of getting a degree is more likely based on the financial aspect. I would want to get a job that I desire and would have the ability to provide financially supports to my parents when they are old. If I learn that my college degree wouldn’t change my lifetime earning potential, I would probably not get a degree as my goal. This is because I would rather spend my time in other interests that would help me to be success in the future.

[George Ooi]

3) There is some great deal of overlap between Mishel’s argument and Murray’s argument. Mishel’s argument is that attending college is not necessary a must because people should value all sorts of works and skills. However, Murray’s argument is that the educational system of colleges has become common because of the number of college graduates is flooding all over the world. Charles Murray’ argument is more persuasive to me because he proves his points and strengthens his argument by giving accurate and real-life examples. Besides, his essay is well-structure and his points are fully organized step by step.

4)I believe that “snobberies” are existed in some places. But so far I’ve not seen any snobbery in my life and I hope I won’t meet any of these “snobberies” in my life. Most of my friends and relatives are very kind and humble as they are willing to share their experiences about their life in school and work. I think that my attitudes don’t meet any of Mishel’s description of snobbery as I personally won’t look down on non-college graduates because they might have no chance to attend college or they might choose not to attend college. The reason is that they couldn’t afford to pay for the huge amount of tuition fees. Although they didn’t attend college, doesn’t mean that they are less intelligent. Minority of them are somehow having more intelligent and more skilled than college graduates in other areas. However, I think that people who are educated are generally more skilled and more intelligent than those who are not. It is because college graduates are trained to be specified in a certain areas and are taught in a appropriate way.

[JB]

I am commenting.

[Olivia]

For me, attending college was never a question. I was always told that I would be attending and pursuing at least a four year education in college. I feel this is possibly because I come from a wealthy community where almost all students graduate high school and move onto college the following semester. I also feel that the college application process may have been more stressful on me due to this prosperous community. The students in my high school mostly applied to schools that are listed in the top colleges in the country are are challenging to get into. If I was not hardwired that I needed to work hard and get good grades in high school in order to make it into a successful college, I feel as though I might not have worked as hard. If the bar was set lower in my community, I most likely would not have been as successful as I am. I might not even pursue college and instead continue jobs I currently hold or search for alternative career options that don't require a college degree. I think another reason why I did not choose this path is because often times jobs that require college degrees pay more and reap more benefits for the employee. If this was not a factor at all, I certainly would not pursue a college education. Personally, I enjoy working and holding a job. I prefer spending time at work over spending time at school. After working, I feel like I have accomplished something. I see my pay checks and am able to support myself almost completely without relying on my parents of any other guardians for assistance. At school, though I am rewarded with good grades for my work, I don't really see the benefits that I get from my job.

[JDT]

When discussing why many college students decided to move onto college it is important to see what kind of background their parent's are involved in. Many times a child with parents who did not go to college will accept only the high school degree because they have observed firsthand that you can live happily without a college degree. On the complete opposite side of the spectrum, we can observe students whose parents come from middle or upper middle class where they grow up automatically assuming that their education will not end at the high school level, but rather moving on to college and higher education. I believe that our parents have a very large role on us in deciding what we will do after our mandatory education. Many people that I know don't really consider taking a gap year or going on to travel, but rather automatically think that they should go onto college without ever looking back. It all comes down to the idea that did we really decide to go onto college all by ourselves?

[ES]

I think that college has become less of a pathway to certain careers and more of a way for young people to prolong their assimilation into the "real world." For most of the people I know, college is considered the next step in their education. A lot of times, it seems that there is no other option for students graduating from my high school because college is pushed upon every student and other pathways for post-graduation. I think it's important for students approaching their high school graduation to seriously consider other opportunities for success outside of a college education. While considering where I might want to go to school for a university education, I considered other post-graduation paths like traveling, working or volunteering. However, I know that for what I wish to do for my career, I would need a college education and I am interested in continuing my education in a school setting and not going to a job right out of high school, or without a college degree. While I think college education is very valuable to certain people regarding their career choices, it's important for young people to seriously consider and research all options for post-graduation pathways.

[KO]

I believe that Mishel has a good theory on education. I can agree that i think everyone wants to or should have a good college degree, but the fact is we can't have a country of managers or CEO's we need to have the workers, the builders and makers that helped build the industrial America. I'm not saying that we should segregate who should and shouldn't go to college because we aren't China, but maybe if we had less "Snobbery" from people with college degrees, and more welcomeness to starting your own business and basically blue-collar work, America could really flourish with a cycle of home-grown workers and managers. I know in High school we had college representatives visit our school and try and sell their school to me and if there was a similar system where local businesses and careers in production and arts also came to show another possibility, there wouldn't be a stigma that people working hard to learn and trade for a skill weren't smart enough to get a high cost college degree that doesn't end up in a guaranteed career.

[RBS]

I agree that college isn't worth the expense or the time for some people. If the field of work an individual intents to go into doesn't require a four year education, then there is no point for that individual to pay for college. Instead there should be more trade schools that focus on fields of work that don't require a college degree.

[SB]

I will be attending college next year because that is what has been expected of me my whole life by my parents, teachers, and friends. I truly haven't even thought about the fact that there are other things I could do after graduating high school, like work, volunteer for community service projects, study abroad, etc. But I guess I haven't taken the time to even acknowledge those possibilities because I've been raised with the idea that if you want to be successful and land a good job then you must go to college AND grad school, maybe even med school or law school depending on the career track I decide. This article argues that there are jobs available that don't require a college education but what? It feels like everything anyone ever talks about requires at least a graduate degree!

[JB]

"If the bar was set lower in my community, I most likely would not have been as successful as I am."
- This makes me wonder why other people, perhaps in other communities, are not as successful. Is is their communities that are the problem? Why wouldn't everyone want to be as successful as possible, and want their children to be as successful as possible?

[DJ]

In my opinion, I think that a college education should not be as big of a factor when hiring for a job. I believe that it is more important for people to be good at the skills needed for the job, rather than having good grades in classes unrelated to the job. I think that the only way to compare two people who are applying for the same job is to see how well than can perform. The only thing that should matter when looking at hiring someone is how well they can do the job.

[AP]

Why did you choose to pursue a college degree? How much of your motivation was economic in nature? What other factors entered into your decision? If you were to learn that your college degree wouldn’t change your lifetime earning potential, would getting a degree still be your goal?

As a child, I had it engrained in my mind that the purpose of going to school was to learn, get good grades and go to college so that one day I would be successful. That being said, although I'm excited to attend college in the fall knowing that only one third of the current work force has a four year college degree is daunting. It brings questions like "what if I can't get a job in my field when I graduate?" The purpose of me going to college is to become educated on a job and career that I hope to one day be able to have. However, perhaps others don't believe that. Some colleges these days have bad reputations are being a "party school" (etc) so maybe some people go to college because they want to get out of their house, stay within a school system that they feel comfortable with, and spend four years partying through college because they don't know what else to do. A lot goes into the college decision making process but how much of it for some is to simply have a good time? I'm not trying to say that people should be miserable while trying to earn a degree that will hopefully enhance their future and provide them with a good job later on. I guess I'm just questioning why some people choose to attend college... Also if two thirds of the work force don't have college degrees why in some areas is there such a hype about going to a competitive high school to get into a competitive college to go and do something great? I mean Steve Jobs dropped out of college and he went on to be extremely successful.

[JB]

"Many people that I know don't really consider taking a gap year or going on to travel, but rather automatically think that they should go onto college without ever looking back. It all comes down to the idea that did we really decide to go onto college all by ourselves?" -

So I wonder . . . since you haven't arrived there yet, what do you see as the main differences/similarities between college and high school?

[JB]

AP:
Because you make a connection between going to college and being successful (as some people see it), I'm wondering whether you, personally, would want to advocate for a different definition of "success." Should we be looking for other things to indicate whether a person has attained "success"?

[ATP]

In my opinion the cost of furthering one's education can only be justified if that person has a specific goal they are trying to meet. What I mean by this is that most people don't always know exactly what they want to do when they graduate high school and should probably look at trade schools or community college. For example, I know that I want to save up some money before attending college, so my plan is to go to community college for a couple years and then transfer to a school that I want to earn my degrees in. I have also looked into trade school's in the area and found that spending tens of thousands of dollars on very expensive schools can't always get you the return on your investment. People, especially in the US, are very capable of making a good living without going to college. The country needs people to not go to college in order for people to not be over-qualified for certain jobs. In my opinion, there should be more specialized schools such as tech schools and trade schools.

[JB]

RBS:
"I agree that college isn't worth the expense or the time for some people. If the field of work an individual intents to go into doesn't require a four year education, then there is no point for that individual to pay for college. Instead there should be more trade schools that focus on fields of work that don't require a college degree."
- Many years ago, we didn't require everyone to go to four years of high school, believing that some students could be "successful" with an eighth-grade education. We changed because most people don't believe that anymore. Some now feel that everyone needs four years of college for "success." You are arguing against that, but would you argue too, then, that four years of high school really aren't that necessary either? Why make the boundary at twelfth grade?

[IZ]

Pursing a college degree in the community that I grew up in was very common to the point where not going to college was not even a consideration. Due to the fact that I live in and lived in wealthy communities i was brought up with the idea that not going to college made you a minority and as result the reason you didn't go to college was because either you didn't try/care or had the correct grades to actually go to college. Basically i believed that if you did not go to college it meant you were not smart enough. In addition, i believe that with college, and when i say college i mean going to school and working hard to your ability, comes the ability to receive a wide variety of jobs that you can pursue rather then being limited to a small range which don't require a college degree. Overall, college gives you the option to receive a higher salary and the job you want in my opinion.

[JDT]

JB:

I think the main difference between high school and college for us doesn't really come to us in academics. In going off to college we are no longer protected as much by our parents as we had been before. From that point on there is no one to make sure that we eat, do our laundry, or take care of ourselves other than us. In this way college is a simulation of the life to come and prepares us for what we must do to survive when we are completely on our own.